from a Guest...

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quote:

Merkel Joins Revolt Over Pope
Paola Totaro Europe Correspondent
The Sydney Morning Herald
February 5, 2009

THE German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has attacked the German-born Pope and become the first European leader to denounce Benedict XVI's decision to re-embrace a British bishop who denies the Holocaust.


German Chancellor, Dr. Angela Merkel

German Council of Jews welcomes Vatican about-turn
Reuters
February 4, 2009

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany's Central Council of Jews welcomed the Vatican's decision to order a traditionalist bishop who denies the Holocaust to recant Wednesday, saying it could lead to a resumption of ties with the Catholic Church.

Charlotte Knobloch, president of the Council of Jews, said the Vatican's move was a positive signal and a reaction to German Chancellor Angela Merkel's demand for clarification after Pope Benedict sparked outrage over his rehabilitation of the bishop.


Charlotte Knobloch  

 
Brava.  Refreshing to see the faces of women telling these men in the Vatican that they are wrong...and refreshing to see that the Vatican is admitting they were wrong.

These are interesting times!

 
 
 
 
 
 
from a Guest...

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German leader Merkel gets my vote for her guts on going public on this disgusting debacle.

The pope on the other hand???

from a Guest...

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The Jews should have a public outcry over anti-Semitism. I just wish women could learn from them and adopt the same outcry against sexism.

 
I am not defending them but I think it is difficult for some women to do this.  There is lots of cultural conditioning that still affects women.

The Church is a spiritual home where many people still find a place of comfort, solace, and belonging in a world that offers so little of this.

People come to Church for that and it therefore makes it difficult to be embracing activism and harsh voices in that context. 

It is not an easy thing to do. 

 
 
 
 
from a Guest...
 
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Almost everything in life that is worthwhile will require great effort and sacrifice. When the discrimination of sexism tears at your heart it overwhelms all else.

Yes it is hard to speak out when you rely on the Church for moral comfort and inspiration, but what is harder is when you feel betrayed by your Church. Sometimes I feel as if God has forsaken me. In such cases all that is left is to stand firm and follow the voice stirring within to try and do what is right, not what is comfortable.

 
 
 
 
from a Guest...
 
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God has not forsaken you. It is she who gives you courage to stand firm in a very challengin situation.

In whatever you do, do it for love.  Do it for the love of women who do not have the courage. Do it for the love of women who do not yet understand.  Do it for the love of women who have so many burdens that they cannot step up to this plate.  Do it for love.  Sexism and patriarchy are prisons.  And it is not just women who are caught as prisoners within.  In whatever you do, do it for love.

from a Guest...

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When I first started to see things in more clear light (that is, when I started to become aware of the sins of sex discrimination in our Church), I thought there was something wrong with me.

I can relate when you say it tears at your heart and overwhelms all else.

That has been and is my experience.  I went through a long period of feeling that I had been betrayed.  Even that I had betrayed myself.

It has been difficult finding the strength and courage to speak up.

from a Guest...
 
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ORIGINAL: Guest

Woody Allen in the movie Scoop said of the Jews … paraphrasing here “you know how it is with those people. One hint of anti-Semitism and they start writing letters.”

It was quite funny; however there is an element of truth in it…. and it is a truth that I admire.

The Jews should have a public outcry over anti-Semitism. I just wish women could learn from them and adopt the same outcry against sexism.

 
Women are like sleeping lions. When they awaken, they have tremendous capacity to play amazing roles in any revolution.

The situation for Jewish people is different than it is for women. Jewish people identify as a group and they raise public outcry against oppressors of their group.

For women in the Church, the outcry that needs to happen is not aimed at someone 'outside' community. It is about wrong that is happening inside our community. When one loves a community, when it is an intrinsic part of one's life, when one has spiritual, social, cultural, ancestral and other connections with a community, speaking out is much more complex.

from a Guest...
 
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Yes it is hard to speak out when you rely on the Church for moral comfort and inspiration, but what is harder is when you feel betrayed by your Church. Sometimes I feel as if God has forsaken me. In such cases all that is left is to stand firm and follow the voice stirring within to try and do what is right, not what is comfortable.

 
God forsakes no one.  God does however periodically remind people that it is never a good idea to rely on anything that betrays you to provide you with moral comfort and inspiration.

woman who votes with feet

 
 
 
 
 
from a Guest...

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Part of Christ's message is about being community. Therefore to say that we do not rely on each other in community stands as a statement that goes contrary to how I understand Christianity. We look out for others. In small community, thank goodness for my fellow parishioners who gather around to provide support to the family whose young mother is stricken with cancer for the second time in a row, to gather for the burial of a loved parent, to celebrate the birth of a child, to mark the passage of sacred events, to remind ourselves that there is more to this life than a 'me.'

 
 
 
 
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It crossed my mind today that those of us who have left the Church ought to be grateful to those who keep pressing for change. Should all moderate voices leave the Church, it is clear there are fringe radicals who would happily and eagerly start moving things in a backwards direction. The rights of women in the Church? Don't bet your life on the fact that they are so firmly entrenched in the world. A minutely small fraction of the world's population of women are privileged with the thing we call 'equal rights.' It would be so easy for this to be swept aside.

from  a  Guest...
 
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ORIGINAL: Guest

Woody Allen in the movie Scoop said of the Jews … paraphrasing here “you know how it is with those people. One hint of anti-Semitism and they start writing letters.”

It was quite funny; however there is an element of truth in it…. and it is a truth that I admire.

The Jews should have a public outcry over anti-Semitism. I just wish women could learn from them and adopt the same outcry against sexism.

 

Women are like sleeping lions. When they awaken, they have tremendous capacity to play amazing roles in any revolution.

The situation for Jewish people is different than it is for women. Jewish people identify as a group and they raise public outcry against oppressors of their group.

For women in the Church, the outcry that needs to happen is not aimed at someone 'outside' community. It is about wrong that is happening inside our community. When one loves a community, when it is an intrinsic part of one's life, when one has spiritual, social, cultural, ancestral and other connections with a community, speaking out is much more complex.

 
Also, if I were a woman say living in Zimbabwe where epidemics of cholera is sweeping the nation and my children are dying and the people in my Catholic Church are helping me out, it would be a complicated thing to rise up in indignation against a male only priesthood. This is a complicated issue for many, many, many women in the world. It is a mistake to assume that the situation of women of relative world wealth is the 'norm.'

from a Guest...
 
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That is very true how different societies, cultures, legal systems have tremendous impact on men, women and children and the church and community.  Thanks for reminding us too that rights of women are very nebulous and fragile and that indeed only a tiny fraction of the world has any kind of rights for women at all.

Historically freedoms and rights can be swept away in a flash many times over the lifetime of humanity. 

After the crusades  in 1200  there was a shortage of men, a tremendous horrific put-down of women  and restriction  of women was placed on women, instead of letting women have more rights.  Nuns were suddenly cloistered, not allowed to go to the new universities, not allowed to have visitors or teach or preach, or travel as suddenly the pope of the time placed these new restrictions. The Inquisition also began and especially targeted women, silencing, torturing, murdering many women, appropriating any property they had or any possessions they had.

It is frightening how swiftly a community or country can turn on certain members of its  community  and inflict hardship,mistreatment or genocide.  Many examples in our lifetime , 

In  countries where women wear burkas women are executed at soccer game locations in front of crowds to emphasize their lack of power and rights.  In other countries it may be more subtle as women get relegated to low pay service jobs and no benefit part-time work only, a financial genocide of poverty and indignity that many men may not have to be subjected to.

 
 



from a Guest...

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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

From a Guest...
 
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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

 
I'm sorry if you feel forsaken and betrayed by the Roman Catholic Church, but the Roman Catholic Church is not God.  God is God.
God forsakes no one.

woman who votes with feet

From a Guest...
 
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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

 
Dear friend, please know that you are not alone in how you are feeling.  Even Jesus cried, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

God has not abandoned you.  She is with you from the time that you were first formed and now...even in times of darkness and discouragement.  Something is stirring.

Psalm 22 -- Godde, She Who Is, the great midwife, she is with us, helping us to be born into our fullnes.

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.

To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
"You relied on the LORD--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you."

Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast.
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.

Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.

Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.

But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.

Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:

"You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel! For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out. I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him. The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!"

All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations will bow low before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

 
 
 
 
From a Guest...
 
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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

 

Why do you feel like God has forsaken you? 

From a Guest...
 
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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

I'm sorry if you feel forsaken and betrayed by the Roman Catholic Church, but the Roman Catholic Church is not God.  God is God.
God forsakes no one.

woman who votes with feet

 


I feel betrayed by the Church. I feel forsaken by God.

From a Guest...
 
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God forsakes no one. 

That's not the way it feels.

Why do you feel like God has forsaken you? 

 
How can you ask that question? The Church may not be important to you but it is important to me.

It is part of the body of Christ. I will not just leave as others have.

But there is much more than the Church involved here. I do not have time to fully respond but perhaps later.

I will say it begins with the Adam and Eve myth and preceeds from there.

 
 
 
 
from a Guest...

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How can you ask that question?

I want to understand.

-m

the reply from a Guest...
 
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It is difficult to explain in a few short paragraphs but I will try to give you a glimpse into why.

I go into Church. I sit in front of a crucifix and look at the figure of Christ hanging there and the only words that come into my mind are “My God, My God why have you forsaken me.”

I do feel forsaken by God and I cannot help how I feel. Telling me God forsakes no one does not change how I feel.

To my knowledge all the major religions of the world have been complicit in their denigration of women. All the major religions of the world place women in subordination to men. All the major Christian religions speak of God as if God is male. It is only now because some women in the secular world have made a public outcry against discrimination against women that the Church has made some changes but the changes are superficial.

The Adam an Eve story is a huge offender. I don’t care how you choose to interpret it.

To the woman he said: "I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master."

The statement “I will...” squarely puts the responsibility on the speaker.

The Letters of Paul…. another big offender. All the subsequent offending interpretations by men revered as great theologians and saints are offensive.

Why has God forsaken me.. I feel this when I ask God to help me and all I hear are excuses why women cannot or will not make a public outcry against embracing Bishops who support the denigration of women. All I get are accusations that I am blaming the victim. It is not a matter of blaming the victim, it is a matter of telling women to rise up and stop being victims.

There are pro women Church groups (I have been told) that are very organized. This whole Bishop Williamson affair is a perfect example of where they have fallen short. The public outcry requires leadership and we have no real leadership to make this a public issue that is every bit as important as the Holocaust and that it will no longer be tolerated.

It is not acceptable to just dismiss this denigration of a woman’s spirit as “Oh well that’s just the way things are..” but we are making progress.

Instead what we need is to stand up and say women’s spirits are not too different from God to be a priest. We need to make this a public outcry and it needs to be expressed in no uncertain terms. We need leadership and it seems there is no effective leadership and I feel forsaken by God because of it.