Yes, I agree. Some attempt to defend Kreeft. Where is it? Silence on the side of Kreeft is resounding..

Why is it that whenever our chats about von Balthasar and the Bride Bridegroom metaphor start taking the stage, the voices of proponents of a male only priesthood suddenly disappear.. Otherwise slathering all over these boards, where are they now?. Not one of them dared slip a toe into the Bride/Bridegroom discussion. Not one single iota via attempt to burp up a defence of any kind on behalf of what von Balthasar and Kreeft have to say about sexual symbolism.

I suspect that other than the cv that's been tossed up on the stage, the same will be continue to be true about Kreeft. Why so? Once defenders of world class theologian von Balthasar realise what sexual symbolism means and how despicable it is, they agree with us. Repulsive is not too strong a word to use in reference to sexual symbolism. Defenders of Bathasar Kreeft predictably continue to join us in being repulsed now that they understand what these men are saying.

I am 100% in favour of women priests. If women are not soon ordained to the priesthood and episcopacy, I forecast a plummeting like dead weight in respect for the priesthood and Rome. This is how they treat their women? Any credibility that Rome might still have will evaporate. Rome's ability to continue to speak as a voice of moral authority in the world will be extinguished.

All that will be left is an empty and vacuous man show. In a time when the world is in desperate need of good leaders, is this what we want?

Yes. If you can defend Kreeft: good God, let's hear it now. Don't expect that a cv will score points.

David H

Part of showing that one truly understands an argument or idea, is to be able to explain it in your own words. Simply parroting off what someone else has already said does not constitute understanding or a defense. Also listing a person’s credentials is not proof that their position is valid. If those who present the Kreeft article really understand and believe in this position, they should be able to defend it in their own words.

well said!

Well, I will defend the Church's viewpoint.
 
I don't have time to go back through and read any of the discussions. I don't have time to listen to Dr. Kreeft's position, or read anything from Tina Beattie; however, write down two or three of your best arguments in a pithy way, and I will respond to them.
 
J 

How can a person defend a position if they won’t even take the time to read or listen to it?
 
Even the initiator of this thread wrote: “Please listen to the following. If you do not, please do not partake in this conversation, because you will have no idea what we are talking about.”

Hi Joseph,

It is great to have you back.  How is the baby? What is her name? and how are the parents?

I look forward to hearing your 'defence.'  I agree with the writer above.  You'll have to listen to Kreeft, read Beattie and also our discussion to fully get into the action.  As it stands now, Kreeft is on a downhill run into the trash can.  He needs your help!!! (there is a challenge ahead of you. it will have to be creative to stand up to the thrashing his 'arguments' have received so far!!!)
 
Take a listen to Kreeft.  My gut instinct says you -- if anyone can -- will love him!

Therese

  It is pathetic that someone listed Kreeft's books , maybe it was Kreeft.  After learning his defense of male only  priests and his vacuos and vicious attack on women,  I  and my family and chidren and friends have absolutely no interest in reading anything else this reactionary  mysoginist UnChristian person writes.  Jesus commands us to love one another and delighted in the gifts and talents the women have.  Jesus totally transformed his new church beyond 12 to many more including female Apostles and disciples.  Jesus gave minsterial equality to women.  Kreeft promotes ignorance and contempt and hatred of women. How nasty of him and how unlike Jesus!  He mimics Van Balthasar and Jean Bouyer with this homoerotic Eucharist is a male sex act crap that is in no way the Eucharist of Jesus and our church.  If the Pope likes thsi perverted crap, I am not surprised the Roman Catholic church has so few priests and so many empty pews.  The nightly and early morning  masses were cancelled  at my church due to lack of attendance and people turning away from the  increasingly troubled and misled church which still resists allowing women to serve God like Jesus had them serve God, doing all that men did.
    You can not blame the women for the mess the church is in, it falls squarely on a reactionary, UnChristian hierarchy of men who are mysoginist.  Cross dressers?  Look at the priests, cardinals and bishops in their long gowns of red, white lace, purple, the Pope in gold,  looking like women.  Dresses and medieval like some of their minds.  He accuses when it is the male curia who dress like cross dressers.  Kreeft is again out to lunch even on this point.  Good grief!   from   Beatrice  and my family

well said, Beatrice!
 
Who is Jean Bouyer?  I am not familiar with him.  I have now heard you and Deborah and Bradley make mention of him.  Is he a contemporary of von Balthasar's? or Kreeft's?
 
I remember my first read of von Balthasar.  My reaction:  simply stunned.
 
Therese

  Hello Therese   Sophie and Dr. Wijngaards  showed me in a recent post how I could view these 2 perverted theologians, Van Bathasar and Bouyer, who hold same sexual male act self-giving male orgasm Eucharist by males  only, "theology"  which they both push as reason against women priests.  Sophie showed me it is listed if you go to the main page of this web site, Curch theologians including this wacky pair and women odination theologians.  I will check out where Sophie's very helpful post is and get back to you.  I am very upset that Pope goes for this disgusting crap to prop up males only as it is totally unlike what Jesus teaches. 
   I also would like to know the title of the book Hans Kung talks about women and the church and year published please if you read it please.  I read Hans Kung Infallible, Eternal Life, and   Christianity and World Religions,  and A Short History of the Church.  All excellent books, and easy and exciting to read and he is such a dedicated Catholic and dedicated also to the Gospel of Jesus and telling the truth.  I have read Ratzinger's books, ugh, he omits women entirely except to mention the "whore of Babylon" only reference to anything female.  Women are truly the disappeared and irrelevant, unworthy, marginal to then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XV1.  I will look at his newest book when I can get it from the library and see his spin on why women are to be excluded.  I will lay bets he won't publish his admiration for Balhasar, and Bouyer's garbagey "male eucharist sex act " theology.  Too embarrisisng but fine to secretly continue teaching this junk to male seminarians in their priest training.  Lots of secrecy and spin doctoring and hiding what is really taught . 
   I will look up where you can find the two morally debauched, spiritually bankrupt, morally vacuous "eucharist communion is male self-giving orgasm " theologians.
It is on the web site and I am grateful Dr. Wijngaards lets us know the truth of this scandalous new way the Pope tries to stop women being priests.  

ORIGINAL: Therese

Hi Joseph,

It is great to have you back.  How is the baby? What is her name? and how are the parents?

I look forward to hearing your 'defence.'  I agree with the writer above.  You'll have to listen to Kreeft, read Beattie and also our discussion to fully get into the action.  As it stands now, Kreeft is on a downhill run into the trash can.  He needs your help!!! (there is a challenge ahead of you. it will have to be creative to stand up to the thrashing his 'arguments' have received so far!!!)
 
Take a listen to Kreeft.  My gut instinct says you -- if anyone can -- will love him!

Therese

Hello Therese,
The baby is great. I won't give out her name (in fact, 'Joseph' isn't even my name), but what I can tell you is that taking care of her is a lot of work. We begin finals next week, so I am pressed for time. For the past seven weeks I have been extremely busy. I average around four to five hours of sleep a night. I have an extreme respect for parents in general, and single parents in particular...especially for those parents of twins etc.
 
While it would be of great benefit for me to read Beattie and listen to Kreeft in order to engage in an effective conversation, I don't believe that this is essential. I am familiar with several of Dr. Kreeft's books and talks (he has a very sharp mind when concerning philosophical matters), and he seems to make good arguments in those; so I am supprised that he didn't do too well here. Even so, for the time being, list a couple of pithy arguments against his position, and I will respond drawing from what I know about Catholic theology. I am very interested in the discussion (which I had seen in passing, but I'm not sure what the argument is) about the homosexual symbolism which I guess results from Kreeft and Von Balthasar's teachings.
 
Let's discuss that.
 
J

It would not take too long to read post # 17, even for a very slow reader. It is important to be discussing the same subject matter.

yes. post 17 is Kreeft's sexual symbolism argument in a 'nutshell.'

ORIGINAL: Guest

Hi folks. I am not a feminist . I am a mid-western housewife and even I can recognize that this Kreeft is a woman-hating crackpot with wierd ideas about male priests sex acts during mass. Holy Mother of Pearl, this guy is the nut inside the shell!
I do not agree to abortions and I love being a wife, a mother and I love being a woman. Kreeft is so far off base I do not know what planet he is on. I certainly hope his ideas are not new Roman Catholic view of the mass. I am going to inquire of my bishop and try to contact the archbishop too because if this garbage Kreeft spews out is the way the mass is viewed now by priests, this is gross! talk to you later from Janet

Janet, I appreciate that you shared this. I am not a feminist either. Despite that, I am very bothered by the fact that women cannot be priests. In my diocese, there are still rumblings about girls being altar servers. This is disheartening to me. I do not understand the Vatican's negative stance towards women. I am also disheartened when I hear some people staunchly defend it. When pressed for answers as to why they defend it, most say it is because they are loyal to the Church. I am a committed faithfilled Catholic. I am sorry that more people didn't speak up about peodophilia when it was happening. Keeping silent about wrongs on the basis of loyalty? How our children have suffered because of attitudes like this. No. I am not a feminist. I love being a woman. This Kreeft talk is as you say - gross. It is demeaning to women and men. It is offensive to God. It is unChristian.

Evelyn

Dear friends,

Reading reactions to Kreeft's lecture brings to mind the voices of many other women and men who have shared their experiences here. In her book  Catholic Woman: Difficult Choices in a Modern World*, author Jeanne Pieper highlights highlights the moving expression of one woman's sadness upon coming to understand Rome's argument of 'sexual symbolism.' Pieper shares 'Emily's' poignant disappointment as she struggles with conversion and her coming to terms with the deeper comprehension of Vatican reality.  Emily's voice speaks as Pieper writes:

My initial response was one of disbelief. It seemed impossible to me that the leadership of the Church had reduced ‘imaging Christ’ in such a crass way as being physically masculine. I felt naive, duped, betrayed, lost. I had the distinct sense that now everything in my life had a different meaning. And I knew, with my whole self, that what I had just read was not the truth. These words contradicted everything I had ever been taught and believed about myself, about Jesus, about my Christian vocation.  I knew that I had experienced the living Christ in many women who bore no ‘natural resemblance’ to Christ but who had in so many ways made Christ incarnate for me. I knew that there was much in me that blocked others from seeing Christ, but I knew from the depths of me that my female body was no obstacle. I knew that I had been led on by a male clerical magisterium who flattered me by telling me that I was created in God’s image, shared in Christ’s mission, while all the while believing that I was basically inferior and would never be a ‘perceptible’ sign of Christ’s presence. I had never wanted to be ordained. I still don’t. But that had nothing to do with being united to Christ. I knew that the document was false, and from that moment on, that I could never presume truth from an institution that had denied my own truth.

The full excerpt from Pieper's book is found in the article  The Forbidden Subject: The Ordination of Women available here:  http://www.womenpriests.org/called/pieper1.asp. By way of precis, the article includes some of Pieper's exploration of Rome's 'justification' of a male only priesthood from the perspectives of:

• The Sacrament of Ordination
  
• Spiritual Reasons
  
• Political Reasons
  
• Modern-day Women Priests
  
• The Controversy Continues

Please let me know if you have any questions.  

With love and blessings,
~Sophie~ 
 
*As a sidebar, see here for a review of Pieper's book.

ORIGINAL: Guest

  Hello Therese   Sophie and Dr. Wijngaards  showed me in a recent post how I could view these 2 perverted theologians, Van Bathasar and Bouyer, who hold same sexual male act self-giving male orgasm Eucharist by males  only, "theology"  which they both push as reason against women priests.  Sophie showed me it is listed if you go to the main page of this web site, Curch theologians including this wacky pair and women odination theologians.  I will check out where Sophie's very helpful post is and get back to you.  I am very upset that Pope goes for this disgusting crap to prop up males only as it is totally unlike what Jesus teaches. 
  I also would like to know the title of the book Hans Kung talks about women and the church and year published please if you read it please.  I read Hans Kung Infallible, Eternal Life, and   Christianity and World Religions,  and A Short History of the Church.  All excellent books, and easy and exciting to read and he is such a dedicated Catholic and dedicated also to the Gospel of Jesus and telling the truth.  I have read Ratzinger's books, ugh, he omits women entirely except to mention the "whore of Babylon" only reference to anything female.  Women are truly the disappeared and irrelevant, unworthy, marginal to then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XV1.  I will look at his newest book when I can get it from the library and see his spin on why women are to be excluded.  I will lay bets he won't publish his admiration for Balhasar, and Bouyer's garbagey "male eucharist sex act " theology.  Too embarrisisng but fine to secretly continue teaching this junk to male seminarians in their priest training.  Lots of secrecy and spin doctoring and hiding what is really taught . 
  I will look up where you can find the two morally debauched, spiritually bankrupt, morally vacuous "eucharist communion is male self-giving orgasm " theologians.
It is on the web site and I am grateful Dr. Wijngaards lets us know the truth of this scandalous new way the Pope tries to stop women being priests.  

 
Thanks for this!  I think I remember the post.  I am going to go back to find it. Yupp...lots of garbage here.  It is sad and really insulting.  The thought that crosses my mind:  the longer Rome holds out, the smarter we all become.  Soon will be gone the days when the laity sat back and simply 'took Rome's word for it.'
 
If Rome sat up and thought about it for awhile, the intransigience they are demonstrating is cooking up the potential for a big mess on their hands.
 
The book about women by Kung?  It is called: Women in Christianity.  It is a short compact read and is absolutely excellent.
 
in peace,
Therese

'Joseph' isn't even my name

 
Hi J,
 
Oops.  You should have told me this long before.  I saw it was the name you used when writing to Robert Sungenis way back when in the Phoebe thread.
 
post 22, your address to Sungenis:
 

Robert Sungenis, would you like to repond to this? 

ORIGINAL: Therese

ORIGINAL: Guest

Hello Therese Sophie and Dr. Wijngaards showed me in a recent post how I could view these 2 perverted theologians, Van Bathasar and Bouyer, who hold same sexual male act self-giving male orgasm Eucharist by males only, "theology" which they both push as reason against women priests. Sophie showed me it is listed if you go to the main page of this web site, Curch theologians including this wacky pair and women odination theologians. I will check out where Sophie's very helpful post is and get back to you. I am very upset that Pope goes for this disgusting crap to prop up males only as it is totally unlike what Jesus teaches.
I also would like to know the title of the book Hans Kung talks about women and the church and year published please if you read it please. I read Hans Kung Infallible, Eternal Life, and Christianity and World Religions, and A Short History of the Church. All excellent books, and easy and exciting to read and he is such a dedicated Catholic and dedicated also to the Gospel of Jesus and telling the truth. I have read Ratzinger's books, ugh, he omits women entirely except to mention the "whore of Babylon" only reference to anything female. Women are truly the disappeared and irrelevant, unworthy, marginal to then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XV1. I will look at his newest book when I can get it from the library and see his spin on why women are to be excluded. I will lay bets he won't publish his admiration for Balhasar, and Bouyer's garbagey "male eucharist sex act " theology. Too embarrisisng but fine to secretly continue teaching this junk to male seminarians in their priest training. Lots of secrecy and spin doctoring and hiding what is really taught .
I will look up where you can find the two morally debauched, spiritually bankrupt, morally vacuous "eucharist communion is male self-giving orgasm " theologians.
It is on the web site and I am grateful Dr. Wijngaards lets us know the truth of this scandalous new way the Pope tries to stop women being priests.

Thanks for this! I think I remember the post. I am going to go back to find it. Yupp...lots of garbage here. It is sad and really insulting. The thought that crosses my mind: the longer Rome holds out, the smarter we all become. Soon will be gone the days when the laity sat back and simply 'took Rome's word for it.'

If Rome sat up and thought about it for awhile, the intransigience they are demonstrating is cooking up the potential for a big mess on their hands.
The book about women by Kung? It is called: Women in Christianity. It is a short compact read and is absolutely excellent.
in peace,
Therese

Hello,

I note your discussion concerning information about Boyer. Here is a copy of the information I provided to our friend Annette earlier on in our dialogue.
I will copy Annette's post here for you, too so that you know the concerns she expressed.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

~Sophie~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I want to find out this Urs Von Balthasar male only theology of priesthood and its sexual basis to why women are said to be unable to be priests. So the Eucharist to RC Curia is not about the host which represents Jesus but about the anatomical appendages below the waist on the priest's body. It is not the bread and wine, body and blood of Jesus but Jesus's semen? Represented by the priest's semen? How sick can RC church get? Pedophiles aplenty!
I want to read the actual dissertation of Balthasar's male only priest theology and if he is not the theologian or one of many Catholic theologian's promoting this reason for male only, I want to find the Papal Encyclical or documents or books you find this in. Could it be possibly posted in the web site please or the title of the documents or books it is found in. I saw Tina Beattie article thanks but is it in a book or document that the seminaries and Pope use?
This is horrible theology absolutely not found in the Old or New Testament. Bridegroom metaphor does not mean this and the Church of men, children and women as Bride only one of SEVERAL metaphors- Jesus as Mother Hen gathering his church of chicks, Jesus as Good Shepherd Gathering his Sheep, Vine and the Branches, etc.
Is this sex reason for male priesthood a new doctrine as the old one of " heat and animate sperm and inanimate ovum" was the previous ridiculous "theology" as if the woman's ovum is inanimate and does nothing in reproduction! The ovum is extremely busy prior to and during and after fertilization. To say the male priest fertilizes the soul is ridiculous, we could equally say the female priest engenders the soul's development as 23 chromosones are contributed by each, both by male and female... and female has deciding factor in crucial X and Y scenario.
Is this still the basis of male priesthood and what has this to do with Eucharist or the Gospel of Jesus? Annette

Dear Annette,

Good questions. I have discussed them with our Academic Advisor, Dr. Wijngaards.* He recommends three main entrances into this range of questions:

* Through the Vatican documents:
http://www.womenpriests.org/church/rome_wom.asp
* Through discussion of body and sexuality:
http://www.womenpriests.org/body/body_ovr.asp
* Articles by conservative scholars (including Urs von Baltassar) can be
found in the LEFT column of this list:
http://www.womenpriests.org/scholars.asp

As an aside, my post script here includes information about Dr. Wijngaards, our Academic Advisor.

With love and blessings,
~Sophie~

Dr.John Wijngaards Short bio-data:

* 1959: ordained a priest as a Mill Hill Missionary.
* 1959 - 1963: studies in Rome. Licenciate of Sacred Scripture at the Pontifical Biblical Institute and Doctorate of Divinity at the Gregorian University, Rome.
* 1963 - 1976: missionary in India. Lecturer at St. John's major Seminary, Hyderabad.
* 1976 - 1982: Vicar General of the Mill Hill Missionaries.
* 1983 - now: lecturer at the Missionary Institute London, which is affiliated both to the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium and Middlesex University in London. At present on a sabbatical.
* 1982 - now: director of Housetop International Centre for Faith Formation in London, England.


For more information about Dr. Wijngaards, click here: http://www.womenpriests.org/wijnga~1/life.asp

   Thank you for posting this theological information about arguments for/against women priests.  Very helpful.
 
   Evelyn      Some people do say they are loyal to the church yet I am sure both you and I and others here are also loyal to the church.    I think we are helping our church because right now it is skidding off the tracks and tumbling over the cliff.
Conditions caused by not having women as priests, like continued pedophile male only priests abuse  and continued coverups of this, just ruin our church more. Male pedophiles far out number female pedophiles.  Women priests are needed to bring balance and renewal.  After all, Jesus started this by making women apostles, disciples and preachers.
      Loyalty is doing our church a favour by reality checking it and stopping the abuse of children, women and men.
It is tough to get some people to admit some things are wrong and to work at fixing them.  Some people only act if they personally are involved, their own child is abused or their own daughter, sister, aunt ,friend, mother has a calling to be ordained.   I can not stop being loyal.  But I see the abuses here in the church that do not come from Jesus or God but do come from Rome and the Vatican.  Thanks for being caring about this too.   Janet

  Hey I do not want to give feminists a bad name.  Feminists worked hard to get women the vote, to get more equal pay and open up more professions to women, like being a policeofficer or doctor.  Years ago no women were allowed to be doctors too.  Feminists too can be mothers and wives and girlfriends and be very feminine.  Foolishly stereotyping any group is crazy. I too support women priests.  There is a lot of God given talent and it is given to women as well as to men.  Janet

  "Life  shrinks  or expands in proportion to one's courage.'-------  Anais Nin , 1903-1977   French Novelist