Deacon Douglas McManaman Argues Against Women's Ordination

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Fri, 09 Dec 2011 00:31:24 GMT

I had no idea how to approach this berofe-now I'm locked and loaded.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 21:55:17 GMT

Guest

There is no record of Jesus ordaining one single person, neither man nor woman.

huh? Do this in memory of me. There's the ordination.

In the Gospel of John it is not the Twelve who are at table with Jesus, but rather the 'disciples.' In the Fourth Gospel the Twelve do not play any significant role; there is no call of the Twelve, no sending of them on mission. They appear only briefly and unexplainedly at John 6:67-71.

For the Evangelist John, the words and actions of Jesus at the Last Supper are directed to disciples in general: all are called to emulate his mission enacted in footwashing.

The notion that Jesus 'ordained' the Twelve at the Last Supper is both anachronistic and too simplistic a reading of the Gospel accounts. The words and deeds of Jesus at the Last Supper are meant to embody the call to service for all disciples and not just men.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 18:44:13 GMT

Guest

Guest

Dear friend,

Other than the 'thank God not all women relate to you,' nauseating imagery, and 'you people' wording, I thought you had a wonderful counter argument. Your descriptions of ideal father daughter relations were beautiful :). However, I can't help but wonder...what's your problem with your mother?

Nothing at all. I have a wonderful mother. I think that's why I have an ardent devotion to Mary. I think that's why I appreciate womanhood so much. I really like women who love being women, who have no need to be more "male", who love the uniqueness and irreplaceability of women, who understand and delight in the distinction between the sexes.

I don't actually need to hear the issues you have with your mother and will not go back to the psychology of the male sex's relationship with their mother during childhood but you didn't even mention the mother daughter/son relationship.

I would have had we been talking about devotion to Mary and its importance.

I found that intriguing.

It's not that intriguing. The context of the discussion explains it well.

Usually the card to play is, 'we have our mother Mary' by the way (so you know for future debate). However, do you not long in your soul for a divine motherly aspect of God?

Yes, I think I do. And I believe that's why the Lord gave us Mary.

Anything your soul longs for can be fulfilled by God if it is a righteous yearn.

This is true, and God did fulfill this longing, by providing us with a real woman to be our mother (Mary, as well as our own mothers, as well as the Church, who is our Mother). We meet the Lord through others.

God is not only our father, but our mother, our friend, our favorite artist, and our Lord.

Now you are beginning to lack precision. There is a sense in which this is true, but remember, this is not a metaphor, but an analogy. God is really and truly Father; Christ revealed him as such. But Christ did not reveal God as Mother. God is "like" a mother, but He is not pre-eminantly 'mother'. Creation is mother. It belongs to a mother to "receive" and "conceive" and "nurture" and "give birth to" and "nurture". Notice the Latin "mater" and the English "matter". A "mater" is made up of "matter". Motherhood is essentially a material phenomenon. God is like a mother, but God is not 'mater', because He has no "matter"; God is immaterial. It belongs to a father to "transmit" to the mother, who receives what he transmits. God creates out of nothing. He imparts being. Because there is no commonality between the act of being of one thing and the act of being of another (otherwise non-being would exist, which is absurd), God is not a mother, for we don't receive or partake of his matter.

God is so many things in my life and I'd like to invite you to challenge yourself to see God in other ways and not just 'father'. See if it brings you the joy and peace it is bringing me. :)

Well, it's hard to respond to this one. It might bring a Hindu Brahmin peace and joy to conceive of God as identical to himself, but could this be delusion, and not genuine peace at all? It might bring someone peace to believe that there is no purgatory, but what matters is what is true. Is your joy from you? Or is it from God? Is it supernatural joy? Or is it merely natural? Is the peace you experience the peace that the world cannot give, that only Christ can give? Or is it a natural peace that even an atheist can experience. We can conceive God in as many ways as we'd like to, but He revealed Himself. Everything that the Father can say about Himself, He has said (spoken) in the Person of His Son. That's an unlimited revelation. Our grasp of it is limited, but it is a definitive but inexhaustible revelation. Because it is definitive, I can't just water it down to include anything. But because it is inexhaustible, I can never fully comprehend God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I can't ever surpass that or move beyond it. To suggest that is to suggest that God did not really reveal Himself.

Certain things over the centuries of religious development have pushed women to the edge of belonging, if not separation. A system that has prevailed in society has prevailed in our church, and that is a system of domination and hierarchical dualism. For many centuries, the prevalent image of God was that of a sovereign male, demanding and distant, possibly frightening and judgmental, definitely patriarchal. Sadly, in many church circles around the globe, that patriarchal image prevails to this day.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 04:33:16 GMT

Guest

As for your description of God, you deny the feminine in God. God is both father and mother to us all. You have created a God in your image. This male god of yours is a great heresy and is nothing more than a disgrace being perpetrated by ignorant men who want to place themselves above women.

Mary is your Mother. God is Abba. Jesus revealed God as Abba. Muslims reject such limitations ("God has no son"). You should become a Muslim. They too say it is heresy to refer to God as Father. You're in the wrong religion. Islam is the way to go, for you.

I am a Catholic.

God is both Father and Mother as was even stated by Pope John-Paul I.

God is not male, a man or a masculine spirit. This is heresy.

When you proclaim such nonsense, you negate the feminine in God.

The beauty in God’s most cherished mother is not her biological function of giving birth but her embracing the Word of God both physically and spiritually. It was through Mary that the Word became flesh. She brought the Word of God to the world. She was the first human being who could say “this is my body, this is my blood” and literally mean it. She continually mediates between God and humanity. God continually sends her to bring the Word of God to us.

She is the ultimate priest.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Fri, 08 Oct 2010 02:41:25 GMT

Guest

Dear friend,

Other than the 'thank God not all women relate to you,' nauseating imagery, and 'you people' wording, I thought you had a wonderful counter argument. Your descriptions of ideal father daughter relations were beautiful :). However, I can't help but wonder...what's your problem with your mother?

Nothing at all. I have a wonderful mother. I think that's why I have an ardent devotion to Mary. I think that's why I appreciate womanhood so much. I really like women who love being women, who have no need to be more "male", who love the uniqueness and irreplaceability of women, who understand and delight in the distinction between the sexes.

I don't actually need to hear the issues you have with your mother and will not go back to the psychology of the male sex's relationship with their mother during childhood but you didn't even mention the mother daughter/son relationship.

I would have had we been talking about devotion to Mary and its importance.

I found that intriguing.

It's not that intriguing. The context of the discussion explains it well.

Usually the card to play is, 'we have our mother Mary' by the way (so you know for future debate). However, do you not long in your soul for a divine motherly aspect of God?

Yes, I think I do. And I believe that's why the Lord gave us Mary.

Anything your soul longs for can be fulfilled by God if it is a righteous yearn.

This is true, and God did fulfill this longing, by providing us with a real woman to be our mother (Mary, as well as our own mothers, as well as the Church, who is our Mother). We meet the Lord through others.

God is not only our father, but our mother, our friend, our favorite artist, and our Lord.

Now you are beginning to lack precision. There is a sense in which this is true, but remember, this is not a metaphor, but an analogy. God is really and truly Father; Christ revealed him as such. But Christ did not reveal God as Mother. God is "like" a mother, but He is not pre-eminantly 'mother'. Creation is mother. It belongs to a mother to "receive" and "conceive" and "nurture" and "give birth to" and "nurture". Notice the Latin "mater" and the English "matter". A "mater" is made up of "matter". Motherhood is essentially a material phenomenon. God is like a mother, but God is not 'mater', because He has no "matter"; God is immaterial. It belongs to a father to "transmit" to the mother, who receives what he transmits. God creates out of nothing. He imparts being. Because there is no commonality between the act of being of one thing and the act of being of another (otherwise non-being would exist, which is absurd), God is not a mother, for we don't receive or partake of his matter.

God is so many things in my life and I'd like to invite you to challenge yourself to see God in other ways and not just 'father'. See if it brings you the joy and peace it is bringing me. :)

Well, it's hard to respond to this one. It might bring a Hindu Brahmin peace and joy to conceive of God as identical to himself, but could this be delusion, and not genuine peace at all? It might bring someone peace to believe that there is no purgatory, but what matters is what is true. Is your joy from you? Or is it from God? Is it supernatural joy? Or is it merely natural? Is the peace you experience the peace that the world cannot give, that only Christ can give? Or is it a natural peace that even an atheist can experience. We can conceive God in as many ways as we'd like to, but He revealed Himself. Everything that the Father can say about Himself, He has said (spoken) in the Person of His Son. That's an unlimited revelation. Our grasp of it is limited, but it is a definitive but inexhaustible revelation. Because it is definitive, I can't just water it down to include anything. But because it is inexhaustible, I can never fully comprehend God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I can't ever surpass that or move beyond it. To suggest that is to suggest that God did not really reveal Himself.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Thu, 07 Oct 2010 23:04:19 GMT

Dear friend,

Other than the 'thank God not all women relate to you,' nauseating imagery, and 'you people' wording, I thought you had a wonderful counter argument. Your descriptions of ideal father daughter relations were beautiful :). However, I can't help but wonder...what's your problem with your mother? I don't actually need to hear the issues you have with your mother and will not go back to the psychology of the male sex's relationship with their mother during childhood but you didn't even mention the mother daughter/son relationship. I found that intriguing. Usually the card to play is, 'we have our mother Mary' by the way (so you know for future debate). However, do you not long in your soul for a divine motherly aspect of God? Anything your soul longs for can be fulfilled by God if it is a righteous yearn. God is not only our father, but our mother, our friend, our favorite artist, and our Lord. God is so many things in my life and I'd like to invite you to challenge yourself to see God in other ways and not just 'father'. See if it brings you the joy and peace it is bringing me. :)

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Thu, 07 Oct 2010 00:04:22 GMT

Dear friend,

I am writing to let you know that I have not forgotten your post or my response to you. I have been in meetings away from home and have not got routine access to the internet. Hopefully, I will have a window of opportunity later today or tomorrow.

In the meantime, be assured of love and blessings,
oremus pro invicem,

Therese (Sophie)

Dear friend,

I think you have forgotten my post.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Thu, 07 Oct 2010 00:02:46 GMT

Guest

‎"No one can see God without abandoning the ways we idolize God. To be reduced to nothing, to consent to the emptiness and unknowing, is to produce in ourselves the womb of true knowledge, which will make us—in the language of Eckhart—‘mothers of God.'" -Being Still: Reflections on an Ancient Mystical Tradition

Gnosticism. It rears its ugly head once again.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:58:01 GMT

‎"No one can see God without abandoning the ways we idolize God. To be reduced to nothing, to consent to the emptiness and unknowing, is to produce in ourselves the womb of true knowledge, which will make us—in the language of Eckhart—‘mothers of God.'" -Being Still: Reflections on an Ancient Mystical Tradition

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:14:59 GMT

As for your description of God, you deny the feminine in God. God is both father and mother to us all. You have created a God in your image. This male god of yours is a great heresy and is nothing more than a disgrace being perpetrated by ignorant men who want to place themselves above women.

Mary is your Mother. God is Abba. Jesus revealed God as Abba. Muslims reject such limitations ("God has no son"). You should become a Muslim. They too say it is heresy to refer to God as Father. You're in the wrong religion. Islam is the way to go, for you.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Mon, 04 Oct 2010 02:23:28 GMT

Guest

Sophie

Dear friends,

I wonder if it is not also a sin against God in the sense that by saying God is male, one is making masculinity an idol that distracts/derails one from the quest for the God who is?

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~

My friends, you are simply denying the Incarnation. God considered in His divinity alone, is not male. But He is Father. Male and female are types that exist in certain kinds of material substances that are living. So God is not male, considered in His divinity alone. But God is Father. Fatherhood is not the same as "male". One can be a father without being a male, but if one is a male, it means one can be a father. If one is female, one can be a mother.

As for making an idol out of masculinity, here is where you are denying the Incarnation. When we worship Christ, we worship a male, a man, a masculine being. Why? Because Jesus is two natures, one Person. He is the Person of the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, and he joined a human nature. But an existing human nature comes in either male or female, not some abstract genderless neuter. Jesus was a male. When we genuflect, we genuflect to a male God, a crucified God, a God who became "man". Sophie just does not know her theology. You people have a big problem. Take your showers and get the man essence off of you, if you have to, but you all need healing. You are so wounded. A healthy young lady who was loved by her father, who was hugged and affirmed by her father and feels good about herself precisely because she was loved by her father is simply delighted that God has been revealed as Father (Abba, dadda). To her, that's a great thing. That is what her own father did, he created the conditions for her to receive the revelation of God's fatherhood. That fatherhood does not deny her the sense of her own worthiness; rather, she is awakened to who she really is through that very fatherhood, as she was through her relationship with her own father. She sees God's fatherhood as her liberation, her freedom, the very principle of her integrity and sense of humanness. You people cannot. You need a God who is abstract, without matter, an It, not a "He", because you carry so many wounds that have yet to be healed. Instead of seeking out that healing, you will go to great lengths to change the world, change the Church, change the liturgy, change the language, so that you never have to feel that pain, caused by those wounds, ever again. That's what is so sad. Your arrogance and intellectual sterility is nauseating. Thank God there are so many women who just do not relate to you, who do not identify with you, who strive to draw close to God their Father, who love to sit on His lap and whisper in His ears, who love to wrap their arms around the Father's neck and kiss Him, and who love being women, who love being feminine, who see God the Father in every priest, even obnoxious priests, and who are so willing to serve God the Father and God the Son in serving their priests. They don't see it as below them, because they are not proud. Rather, they are greatful and full of the love of God the Father and God the Son. They live within the Spirit of that mutual love between them.

You people need to get out of the framework of justice, equality, my rights, anger, and into the framework of charity, generous service, gratitude, joy, etc.

You people?

Love, charity, generous service, joy, all of that stems from the heart as does equality and justice.

You do not discriminate against someone you love. Or do you?

Practice what you preach.

As for your description of God, you deny the feminine in God. God is both father and mother to us all. You have created a God in your image. This male god of yours is a great heresy and is nothing more than a disgrace being perpetrated by ignorant men who want to place themselves above women.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Mon, 04 Oct 2010 02:10:31 GMT

Sophie

Dear friends,

I wonder if it is not also a sin against God in the sense that by saying God is male, one is making masculinity an idol that distracts/derails one from the quest for the God who is?

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~

Yes Sophie,

Whatever injustice is done to women, that is also done to God.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sun, 03 Oct 2010 23:14:47 GMT

If Saint Teresa of Avila says, 'Christ has no hands but yours' is she speaking to women and men? or only to men?

If I as a female child was taught to be like Christ, were the adults and Church who were teaching me this teaching me an impossibility? For if it is Christ's maleness that is essential, then it is impossible for me, a woman, to be like Christ.

Sorry but the limitations in your perceptions of who God and Christ are are truly uninspiring. Your repeat things from rote with no depth in your analysis.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sun, 03 Oct 2010 22:58:41 GMT

Sophie

Dear friends,

I wonder if it is not also a sin against God in the sense that by saying God is male, one is making masculinity an idol that distracts/derails one from the quest for the God who is?

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~

My friends, you are simply denying the Incarnation. God considered in His divinity alone, is not male. But He is Father. Male and female are types that exist in certain kinds of material substances that are living. So God is not male, considered in His divinity alone. But God is Father. Fatherhood is not the same as "male". One can be a father without being a male, but if one is a male, it means one can be a father. If one is female, one can be a mother.

As for making an idol out of masculinity, here is where you are denying the Incarnation. When we worship Christ, we worship a male, a man, a masculine being. Why? Because Jesus is two natures, one Person. He is the Person of the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, and he joined a human nature. But an existing human nature comes in either male or female, not some abstract genderless neuter. Jesus was a male. When we genuflect, we genuflect to a male God, a crucified God, a God who became "man". Sophie just does not know her theology. You people have a big problem. Take your showers and get the man essence off of you, if you have to, but you all need healing. You are so wounded. A healthy young lady who was loved by her father, who was hugged and affirmed by her father and feels good about herself precisely because she was loved by her father is simply delighted that God has been revealed as Father (Abba, dadda). To her, that's a great thing. That is what her own father did, he created the conditions for her to receive the revelation of God's fatherhood. That fatherhood does not deny her the sense of her own worthiness; rather, she is awakened to who she really is through that very fatherhood, as she was through her relationship with her own father. She sees God's fatherhood as her liberation, her freedom, the very principle of her integrity and sense of humanness. You people cannot. You need a God who is abstract, without matter, an It, not a "He", because you carry so many wounds that have yet to be healed. Instead of seeking out that healing, you will go to great lengths to change the world, change the Church, change the liturgy, change the language, so that you never have to feel that pain, caused by those wounds, ever again. That's what is so sad. Your arrogance and intellectual sterility is nauseating. Thank God there are so many women who just do not relate to you, who do not identify with you, who strive to draw close to God their Father, who love to sit on His lap and whisper in His ears, who love to wrap their arms around the Father's neck and kiss Him, and who love being women, who love being feminine, who see God the Father in every priest, even obnoxious priests, and who are so willing to serve God the Father and God the Son in serving their priests. They don't see it as below them, because they are not proud. Rather, they are greatful and full of the love of God the Father and God the Son. They live within the Spirit of that mutual love between them.

You people need to get out of the framework of justice, equality, my rights, anger, and into the framework of charity, generous service, gratitude, joy, etc.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Sophie)

Sun, 03 Oct 2010 21:29:04 GMT

Dear friends,

I wonder if it is not also a sin against God in the sense that by saying God is male, one is making masculinity an idol that distracts/derails one from the quest for the God who is?

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sun, 03 Oct 2010 20:56:49 GMT

Guest

Guest

Deacon McManaman and the Vatican's version of Jesus has no relevance for me.

Your version of Jesus would have no relevance for a number of other people.

The only version of Jesus that really matters is his version, Jesus' version. If he did not endow his Church with a charism that will preserve the Church from doctrinal error, then all we have are versions of Jesus, some relevant for others and irrelevant for different others, and other versions relevant and irrelevant. There would be no unified vision, not one teaching, but all diverse and multiplied. And what would quickly become irrelevant is the question of the true and real Jesus, as opposed to someone's subjective version.

If Jesus came for all, why would he endorse rule by men only?

He is the king. He alone rules. We're dealing with a monarchy. He is a man, he alone is in charge, hence rule by "man only".

What Deacon McManaman and his so called friends at the Vatican are peddling is a Jesus who gives them a rubber stamp for their medieval man show that props them up by discriminating against women.

I wonder if he even knows anybody at the Vatican. My suspicion is that he's a deacon like any other deacon, just doing his work, faithful to the teachings of the Church. Do you think he really has a group of friends at the Vatican that are plotting to keep women out of Orders? Silly nonsense.

Not very appealing or meaningful to any intelligent person who is looking for a faith community that has relevance to a world that is beginning to understand the truth about women and just how evil is the sin of sexism.

Beginning to understand the truth about women? That is so interesting. You are looking for a faith community that accords with you, with your understanding and your taste. You are not looking for a faith community that will disclose the truth of Christ, but one that is agreeable to you. The standard is the world and its understanding. The Church you are looking for is one that keeps up with that understanding, that follows the world and its progressive understanding. Female ordination is not the only issue, I'm sure. The Catholic Church is also behind when it comes to same sex marriage and contraception and IVF and Stem Cell research, etc. The Church has to keep up with the world's progressive understanding, right? Best to just leave the Catholic Church, find your faith community, do what you have to do, and when you are ready to grow up and commit to the interests of Christ, rather than your own, then return to the Church a new person. In the meantime, have fun whining and looking down your nose at the Church.

One day some of them will see.

No, I think some day you'll see.

God is neither male nor female but encompasses both.

God became human as a man in Jesus Christ. God is not a male, a man, or a masculine spirit. God is spirit. In the spirit we are neither male nor female, but one in Christ.

To make God a male spirit or male deity is nothing more than heresy and a grave sin against women.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:41:16 GMT

Guest

Deacon McManaman and the Vatican's version of Jesus has no relevance for me.

Your version of Jesus would have no relevance for a number of other people.

The only version of Jesus that really matters is his version, Jesus' version. If he did not endow his Church with a charism that will preserve the Church from doctrinal error, then all we have are versions of Jesus, some relevant for others and irrelevant for different others, and other versions relevant and irrelevant. There would be no unified vision, not one teaching, but all diverse and multiplied. And what would quickly become irrelevant is the question of the true and real Jesus, as opposed to someone's subjective version.

If Jesus came for all, why would he endorse rule by men only?

He is the king. He alone rules. We're dealing with a monarchy. He is a man, he alone is in charge, hence rule by "man only".

What Deacon McManaman and his so called friends at the Vatican are peddling is a Jesus who gives them a rubber stamp for their medieval man show that props them up by discriminating against women.

I wonder if he even knows anybody at the Vatican. My suspicion is that he's a deacon like any other deacon, just doing his work, faithful to the teachings of the Church. Do you think he really has a group of friends at the Vatican that are plotting to keep women out of Orders? Silly nonsense.

Not very appealing or meaningful to any intelligent person who is looking for a faith community that has relevance to a world that is beginning to understand the truth about women and just how evil is the sin of sexism.

Beginning to understand the truth about women? That is so interesting. You are looking for a faith community that accords with you, with your understanding and your taste. You are not looking for a faith community that will disclose the truth of Christ, but one that is agreeable to you. The standard is the world and its understanding. The Church you are looking for is one that keeps up with that understanding, that follows the world and its progressive understanding. Female ordination is not the only issue, I'm sure. The Catholic Church is also behind when it comes to same sex marriage and contraception and IVF and Stem Cell research, etc. The Church has to keep up with the world's progressive understanding, right? Best to just leave the Catholic Church, find your faith community, do what you have to do, and when you are ready to grow up and commit to the interests of Christ, rather than your own, then return to the Church a new person. In the meantime, have fun whining and looking down your nose at the Church.

One day some of them will see.

No, I think some day you'll see.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:47:23 GMT

that is not a way of thinking that was modelled by Christ. we are all God's creation... men and women included.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:09:52 GMT

I despise men! Every time I hear that word, I have to take a shower to get the "man essence" off of me.

Re:Deacon Mcmanaman's Account of Why Women Are Not Ordained (Guest)

Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:46:27 GMT

In the Gospels, we hear Jesus treat women with respect and equality. Paul continues this attitude toward women, especially in the phrase “there is no longer male or female…”. It is time for the Church to reclaim this Gospel message.